Reframe & Reset Your Career Podcast

Episode 65. The Perfection Trap: The Power Of Good Enough – Professor Thomas Curran

What is perfectionism and does it lead to success and better performance? Professor Thomas Curran and I discussed this, other insights from his best selling book “The Perfection Trap”, being interviewed by Gwyneth Paltrow and much more on Episode 65 of the Reframe & Reset Your Career podcast.

In this episode, we will learn about:

How Thomas has had a non-linear career but has bounced back from difficult experiences,

Failure is part of life and reframing failure can help to manage its impact,

What is perfectionism?

Understanding your purpose and not seeking external validation to provide meaning and motivation,

How both genetic and environmental factors impact perfectionism,

The dangers of comparing yourself to others,

Setting realistic goals which are in line with your values and enjoying the journey,

Why perfectionism does not lead to greater success and performance, and

Strategies for managing perfectionism.

The edited transcript of the interview is at the end. It has been edited for clarity and ease of reading. I hope you find it helpful.

Thomas grew up in Wellingborough, Northamptonshire, before studying at De Montfort University and the University of Leeds, UK, where he received his PhD in psychology. He taught at several universities in Australia and the UK before joining the Department of Psychological and Behavioral Science at the London School of Economics as a professor in 2019.

He studies the personality characteristic of perfectionism, how it develops, and how it impacts on mental health. His TED talk on perfectionism has received more than three million views.

His research has been featured in media ranging from the Harvard Business Review to New Scientist to CNN and he has appeared on numerous television and radio programs. He is the author of The Perfection Trap.

Thomas and I talked about how becoming comfortable with failure can lead to success, he told me “What’s a much more healthier way is to recognise failure as part and parcel of the learning process and actually if we can release the power of failure then we’re likely to be more successful because we won’t engage in those sabotaging behaviors that mean we avoid challenge and difficulty and try to choose the path of least resistance you know that might be good for success in the short term but when we’re thinking about Innovation, knowledge economy and all the rest of it the modern workplace requires creativity, innovation that’s where you’re going to elevate yourself in those companies and above other people. I think we’ve got to get comfortable with failure.”

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Andrew Hill

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Thank you for your continued support of Reframe & Reset Your Career, I do appreciate it. I now have a new website, see link above, please do check it out, I hope you find it helpful. The next episode is out on Weds 6th December with Alicia Ramsdell, TEDx speaker, CEO & Founder of Mindful Career Path and one of the top 15 Career Coaches in Boston.

It would be great to hear from you, the listeners, and your thoughts about the podcast, YouTube channel or anything else, it’s always a pleasure to hear your views. I have had some great reviews but not had any way of responding. 

Edited Interview Transcript

Harsha: [00:00:00] Welcome to Reframe and Reset Your Career, a podcast to help if you’re looking for a job, feeling stuck in your career, or just trying to rediscover your why. I am your host Harsha Boralessa, and this podcast came from my passion for neuroscience and psychology and the interaction with career and personal development.

I will be interviewing recognized experts and successful professionals. And asking them to share the insights and strategies that have helped their careers thrive. Implementing change is not easy and does take time, but I do hope that their stories will inspire you on your path to greater success and fulfillment in your career.

Here are some highlights of today’s episode.

Thomas: Writing my dissertation on Christmas Day, all of these things that,  at the time I thought that was amazing, look at how hard I’m working, but looking back, it was not healthy at all. If we can release the power of failure, then we’re likely to be more successful because we won’t engage in those sabotaging behaviors that mean we avoid challenge and [00:01:00] difficulty.

The meaning should be that we’re creating things and we’re leaving things in the world for other people to use and enjoy. That should be our purpose and drive. Enjoy more of the journey and the process because that’s where you’ve really find your joy.

Harsha: Welcome to the Reframe and Reset Your Career podcast.

Our guest today is Professor Thomas Curran. Before we begin, I wanted to thank all the listeners of the podcast for their support. I’ve just launched a new website, which now has all the podcast interviews and links to all my content. Please do check it out. It’s called Please note that in this episode, we may touch on mental health and wellness topics purely in general terms. If you have specific issues or concerns, please contact a suitable professional. Now back to the show.

Thomas grew up in Wellingborough, Northamptonshire. Before starting at De Montfort University and the University of Leeds. He taught at several universities in Australia and the UK [00:02:00] before joining the Department of Psychological and Behavioral Science at the London School of Economics as a professor in 2019.

He’s a fifth LSE academic that I’ve had on the show. This is not intentional. All universities are welcome. Tom studies the personality characteristic of perfectionism, how it develops and how it impacts on mental health. His TED talk on perfectionism has received more than 3 million views. His research has been featured in media ranging from the Harvard Business Review to New Scientist to CNN, and he has appeared on numerous television and radio programs.

He is also the best selling The Perfection Trap, which is a great read. Welcome, Thomas.

Thomas: Thank you so much for having me, Harsha. I’m really excited for our chat.

Harsha: What’s it like to be interviewed by Gwyneth Paltrow?

Thomas: Wow, that was a great interview. I didn’t know what to expect. [00:03:00] I am not somebody who takes too much of an interest in popular culture, but obviously everybody has heard of Gwyneth Paltrow.

All sorts of people were very excited when I told them, probably more excited than I was actually, because I was so immersed in the book and the PR stuff. But look, it was amazing. She was great. She’d read the book, which just blew my mind. She had some really interesting insights of her own and really, it was one of those chats where I was just as interested to know what she thought about this topic as I did.

So it was a really, really cool discussion and yeah, one I won’t forget. And it’s always now online on the internet, probably taken away. So,  if I need a conversation starter. At the next event, then I’ll have that one in my back pocket. So surreal experience, but loved it.

Harsha: I’m a big fan of the arts. Is there a performer song book or film, which you’d like to share with us?

Thomas: Yeah, I am too. I really [00:04:00]  love literature and my favorite book is actually also my favorite film is The English Patient. It’s one of those books that just stops you in your tracks. Always takes your breath away.

In terms of how well it’s written the structure, the way that it develops the story in so, it has so many different layers, goes back in time, it’s just an incredible book and the film is, is such a, it was so, that’s a such a difficult book to turn into a film in so many ways because of the chronology and how it unfolds and they just did a wonderful job of not following exactly to the plot and the chronology and it works so well.

I think the English Patient is absolutely, it’s just an incredible book and film and I’d encourage anyone who hasn’t seen it or read the book to do so.

Harsha: Love that choice. Now, back to the beginning, what led to your interest in psychology? Was it through sport?

Thomas: Yeah, I think so. I was an avid sports fan and when I was younger I was a reasonably good athlete. [00:05:00]

It didn’t quite work out for me. Unfortunately, but I did get to quite a good level through the academies in the UK system, which is difficult to do when you’re a kid, because a lot of people, a lot of young boys go into that system. But like many, many other young boys, I was cut when I was 14, didn’t quite make the, make it over the line, unfortunately.

But those experiences stayed with me, actually. It was one of the things that I decided, well, if I’m not going to be a football player, I’m going to stay in sports. I wanted to be a PE teacher. So I went to university to study PE, and in that process, I got really interested in psychology. Because I think the psychological impact of being cut at a young age is something that I’d already carried with me.

It kind of fascinated me, like, how we deal with those setbacks. So I looked into sports psychology, how to deal with things like anxiety, coping under pressure, [00:06:00] and all the rest of it. Psychological skills, mental toughness, that sort of stuff. Really interesting, really, really interesting stuff. And so I specialized in sports psychology and then did a PhD in psychology.

And then I’ve ended up here. So it’s been a bit of a rollercoaster, but it definitely was sparked by my interest in sport.

Harsha: That’s true. Clearly, obviously for you, things have gone incredibly well. It wasn’t linear. It wasn’t straightforward. And I read an article where you went to Australia and things slightly went awry.

Maybe you’d like to touch on that a bit, Thomas, if that’s okay.

Thomas: Of course. Yeah. I mean, my aspirations were never a TED talk, an LSE professor with a best-selling book. These are things that were never in my wildest dreams that I’ve ever imagined happened to me. And so the journey has been one that in order to go from where I started, I think, you have to make sacrifices and I made a lot of sacrifice in my 20s.

And once I realized that actually, I might be quite good at this, I might have an eye for a project and maybe a different perspective on psychological issues, which is why I publish quite well. [00:07:00]As you say, I’ve had some success, but it did come at the expense of my mental health, because I was doing a lot of things that  weren’t healthy, like staying up late, working evenings and weekends writing my dissertation on Christmas day, all of these things that,  just at the time of what that was amazing, look at how hard I’m working, but looking back, it was not healthy at all.

And I got my first postdoc position after putting myself under all that stress and strain of a PhD in Australia. And I just couldn’t keep it going because that’s the thing with perfectionistic striving, unrelenting standards. It’s fine short term, but it’s not sustainable ways of striving long term.

And you will feel exhausted. You will find yourself struggling. And when stress has come into your life out of the blue. They can interact with that perfectionism in really quite difficult ways, and that’s certainly the case for me. A stressful break up in that period of time, combined with me leaving home [00:08:00] and moving to a new country, a lot of big things, a lot of changes, I just couldn’t deal with it.

My perfectionism was the one thing I thought was holding me up. But coming down, I thought, no, we’ve got to hold on to perfectionism because that’s what’s keeping it going. But actually perfectionism was amplifying and creating a lot of the problems. And so I decided I needed to step back from that pressure, take a different direction, move back home and almost start again, I suppose with a slightly different outlook.

And that, that was really when I started to look more deeply into perfectionism because I’m reflecting on those experiences. It was really the perfectionism that created those problems. And I saw it all around me, and I wanted to know more about it. So that’s why I studied this curious trait.

Harsha: That’s really helpful for our listeners, Tom.

You had to almost step back to move forward. Because I think,  especially in modern life, you have this supposedly linear path, you’re going from A to B to C and then suddenly you’re a hero or a heroine, but actually [00:09:00]  having those squiggly careers or those non-linear careers is actually more common than we realize. People like that narrative that they were the golden child from an early age and it was an inevitable rise to success.

And I think for you, the fact that you’re still relatively young, the fact that you’ve gone back to go forward is actually quite inspiring in a way for our listeners that you did have setbacks, and it wasn’t a minor setback, it was a pretty major setback. So you’ve done incredibly well to bounce back from that.

Thomas: I appreciate that. It’s very nice of you to say. I just wanted to be really open and frank and I want to be open and frank in my discussion about my own experience with perfectionism because I listen to a lot of gurus, and I read a lot of developmental books and sometimes you can be led to the belief that if you just work hard and keep pushing through the pain and all the rest of it that in the end you’ll get there.

Sometimes when I reflect on my own experience [00:10:00]  and I listen to other people too, we know don’t we as human beings that it’s not that simple. It’s not simple to just say, keep working and you’ll get there in the end.

You’re going to encounter setbacks, you’re going to have to stand still for a little while, you’re going to, as you mentioned there, in my experience, you’re going to step backwards. All these things are just normal part and parcel of human progress, human growth, even though it sounds counterintuitive.

Human growth also includes stepping back  because sometimes in those moments, we can release ourselves from the pressures to move forward, which are actually holding us back. And to take a different direction in order to grow further. And so I think, we just have to have honest conversations about that because it is okay to reset sometimes and you don’t have to do as radical a reset as I did.

Sometimes it’s just as simple as taking a week off work, [00:11:00] sometimes it’s okay to do that, to give yourself permission to do that. I know that in the long run, that’s going to be eminently more healthy than trying to continually push, push, push, push. So, yeah, I hope through those experiences, sharing my own experiences and listening to other people who share similar experiences, really helps people recognize that. Success isn’t, isn’t a linear path and that’s like embracing.

Harsha: So, Tom, moving to Australia isn’t a requirement.

Thomas: No, it’s not but I finally recommended it, by the way. It wasn’t Australia that was a problem. I would fly back in a flash.

Harsha: I like that point you make about failure because it’s an inevitable part of life.

And we were talking just before, I come from a cricketing background and there as a batsman, if you’re succeeding 30 to 40% of the time, that’s actually a good career and you’re failing, say 60 to 70%. So you’ve just got to get comfortable with the idea of things not going well and figuring out a way to mentally adapt but in life it’s not easy for people.

It’s a relentless striving. [00:12:00] And I think for some people, when they hit that first setback, I remember when I hit my first roadblock, it’s tough to sometimes,  bounce back.

Thomas: I think it’s really important, Harsha. A little, little birdie told me you were a professional cricketer.

I’d call that success. They also told me that you averaged over 50 at Lords, which is an incredible success. Your hit rate is pretty good, but you’re actually right on your broader point that  failure is part and parcel of life, right? So you’re going to fail way more than you can succeed. It’s regression to the mean.

249 of the 250 athletes that begin the Tour de France are not going to finish the general qualification, the winner. It’s like Wimbledon, there’s only one champion, everybody else at some point is going to lose a game. So I think we have to recognize that. And sometimes in modern society, you find that really difficult, that reality really difficult because the pressures are really high, you don’t want to be seen to fail.

And it’s particularly in school or college, by the way, young people, if you fail a test, you could be brought down a class, which has massive implications. The, the consequences that we place on, sorry, [00:13:00] failure in modern society are what’s part of this problem. We have to look past the kind of easy explanation that, we just therefore have to avoid failure at all costs.

Well, we have to recognize that actually that way is the way to failure, more failure. What’s much more healthy way to strive is to recognize that failure is part and parcel of the learning process. Actually, if we can release the power of failure, then we’re likely to be more successful because we won’t engage in those sabotaging behaviors that mean we avoid challenge difficulty and try to choose the path of least resistance.

That might be good for success in the short term, but when we’re thinking about innovation, knowledge, economy, and all the rest of it,  the modern workplace requires creativity, innovation. That’s where you’re going to elevate yourself above, in the end, those companies and above other people.

But yeah, I think we’ve got to get comfortable with failure, we’ve got to get comfortable, [00:14:00] and at the moment I think we’re a little bit uncomfortable with it, and myself included by them.

Harsha: That’s such a nice segue into your work in perfectionism, as it’s very much about deficit thinking and self-sabotage, which I think for a lot of people, they don’t realize that psychological element to perfectionism.

But maybe you’d like to start off with, how do you define perfectionism?

Thomas: Well, that was a lovely segue. Thank you, Harsha. Very seamless into perfectionism, because this is really what it is, right? It is very core. It’s about failure and aversion to failure and not wanting to show any chink in the armory to other people.

Why? Because then it exposes something that deep down we know exists, but we don’t want to exist and that’s an imperfect flaw itself that resides in our interiors that we’re trying to disguise and hide from the world. And that’s really what perfectionism is, it’s a deficit, a form of deficit thinking.

A sense that we’re not perfect enough, that we’re less than. And that really our sacred mission in life is to prove to other people that we’re okay, that we’re good enough, [00:15:00] that we’re worth something and how do we guarantee that or we try it to be perfect. And so if we start there, with our understanding of perfectionism.

And you can really begin to see quite clearly, actually, how it can be very problematic for our mental health, but also importantly, how it isn’t quite the caped crusader we think it is when it comes to success either. So I think it’s really important conversation about perfection. To start with that deficit.

Harsha: I think for a lot of people, they’ll say, it’s a good thing. It’s a good thing to be perfectionistic. It’s a question in the interview. What’s your flaw? I’m a perfectionist, but it is something in our society, which we do hold very highly, but in the majority of other things, good enough is okay.

Thomas: Well, I’d even say lawyers, pilots, surgeons, even in these professions, I don’t think you really want a perfectionist at the end of the day,  you’ve got to go off, but you can’t keep iterating and finding loopholes and all the rest of it, [00:16:00] you can’t do it indefinitely. And that’s the same for piloting,  if an engine goes 45,000 feet, you got to think clearly about how you get this plane down and there are, there may be a number of good enough options, but no one perfect option.

And I think, it’s about thinking clearly in those situations and being able to go through the checklist and get the thing on the ground and same with surgeons, same with nuclear plant:  conscientiousness, meticulousness, diligence, all these things are really important, but they allow us to let things go when it’s when it’s right and good enough and correct and proper.

Perfectionists will search and search and search for the perfect product or outcome, which simply doesn’t exist. So I think we have to be aware of that when it comes to conversations about perfectionism.  It’s not about holding back meticulousness or not being aspirational [00:17:00]or whatever. The perfectionism sits on a completely different spectrum to those things. And it’s really important to make that distinction.

Harsha: There’s a nice story in your book about your grandfather who was a master craftsman and clearly he has high standards, but it’s not about validation for him. It’s about doing the work putting it out into the world and then moving on.

And I think that’s a  nice distinction you brought up about, you can have high standards, but you don’t have to be perfectionistic. Do you want to expand on that, Tom?

Thomas: Yeah, my grandfather was an incredible man. Yeah, from the vantage point of a child, he died when I was young, sadly, but I did get I do have memories.

And when you’re a child and you’re watching somebody make something from scratch with their hands, it’s just magical, how on earth are you able to do this? And his wares, by the way, still exist still there, still in place, staircases, bars, floors, window frames. In the pubs of Northamptonshire.

So sometimes me and my dad will go and have a drink and toast my grandfather who’s in some ways still [00:18:00]  in those places. And, and what that reminded me, really, or reflecting on that was that he had a vocation. He wasn’t interested in other people’s validation, fire emojis, how many followers he got or even that dreaded 3 star review that you might get on my builder these days, like none of those things mattered in his world.

He just wanted to make things for other people to use and enjoy. And that’s where his pride and accomplishment came from. He could go home of an evening. Put the television on, drop a whiskey, and be content that he’d done a good day’s work and that people were using the things he’d made. I think there’s something to learn there about what it is that work is for.

We’ve lost the vocation in the work [00:19:00] and we’ve replaced it with personality and identity and concern about whether it’s good enough or whether people are going to like it. And I think we need to reconnect with the purpose of it. What’s the meaning? The meaning should be that we’re creating things and we’re leaving things in the world for other people to use and enjoy.

That should be our purpose and drive. But at the moment, and I speak from personal experience with this, it’s not about that. It’s about competition. It’s about lifting ourselves up about other people. It’s about receiving approval, praise and all the rest of it. And of course, those things are really indications of perfectionism.

It’s driving our motivation rather than the need to do things.

Harsha: I think that’s a great point you bring up on because I think if you can think about the process, you can think about the work and actually just enjoy the process and the work and enjoy the art of creating something. If people like it, that’s great.

I suppose the analytics are helpful in terms of guiding you to what maybe people are interested in, but I think if you’re too driven by the tail, then you just get very depressed about the whole situation. I mean, just say with this podcast, I never started it to get validation. I’m not sure if I’ll ever get validation from a podcast, but it’s a whole idea of just creating something, putting something out into the world and then having Thomas Curran on your podcast!

[00:20:00] I’m validated. Yeah. I’m one degree separation from Gwyneth Paltrow!

Thomas: Yeah. what a link that is and I’m the link as well. That’s crazy but absolutely right. But that should always be the motivation behind what we’re doing.  Simon Sinek writes and talks very convincingly about reconnecting with our why.

Like, why is it that we’re doing this thing? That’s so important. My grandfather was very clear about why he did things. He just wanted to leave things in the world for other people to use. And of course he needed to make a living and all those things are true. Don’t get me wrong, it was a means to an end in those respects, but it was also a vocation.

And I think in the modern workplace, we’ve lost that meaning, we’ve lost that why, chasing external validation and external cues that we’re doing. Okay. By the way, I think that’s both for individuals and for [00:21:00] organizations themselves to solve because it’s a cultural problem just as much as an individual problem. But I do think I do think we need to reconnect with the why.

Harsha: That’s a great point. And actually, with perfectionism, what I was picking up from your work is that you’ve got this partly genetic element, but you’ve got all these environmental factors as well. Do you just want to talk a little bit about that?

Thomas: Yeah, of course, there’s loads of evidence now to suggest that the way we turn out is heavily determined by genetics.

I mean heavily, I’m talking like 50%. Half of the differences between people are due to genetics. And that’s a consistent finding now across all sorts of behavior, genetic studies, twin studies and all the rest of it. And that’s crazy. What that tells you is that really, there’s not a lot you can do, both as individuals and maybe parents trying to shape young people.

We can sit back and go, Oh my God, that’s crazy. Or actually you can [00:22:00] find solace in that fact that actually there’s some comfort that there’s very little I could have done. And the way that I am was really largely determined by how I started.

However, I will say that even though it’s like there is big genetic component, there is still a lot for the environment to explain, you know. About 50 percent when it comes to perfectionism, about 60 percent of perfection is explained by the environment. So it’s still a sizable amount for the environment to interact with genetics.

And one of the things I’m trying to argue in a book about perfectionism is that when we think about the environmental side of the equation, we often look at parents or early life experiences, which are really important, but we neglect, I think, some of the bigger factors, the bigger forces, the cultural forces that are impacting on everybody’s need to be perfect.

And when you look out into the world and see how much pressure there is. social media, huge pressure to be perfect in the modern platforms and they’re in our lives 24 seven, there’s no escape. Schools, colleges that become very pressurized and competitive [00:23:00] changing parenting practices that reflect the way that schools and colleges become more competitive with parents helicoptering a lot more focusing on academic achievement.

And also, the workplace. It’s more insecure. You’ve got to hustle. You’ve got to grind. You’ve got to make your own way. There’s no protections. There’s no securities, particularly for young people entering the workforce. That’s a lot of pressure. That’s a lot of pressure. So, there’s all sorts of things going on there and wider environment, wider society, which I think are also pushing on people’s need to be perfect, but you’re absolutely right. It’s an intricate blend of both. And there is a big genetic component to this,

Harsha: And it’s interesting because I suppose on the genetic side, people say if you’re in a high achieving family in order, say for your parents to have done well, they’ve obviously got a genetic element, so that’s going to be passed on to you.

Maybe they’re Oxbridge types and they’re going to say, well, if you didn’t get to Oxbridge, you’re a failure. So it’s, it’s a lot of pressure on the kid,  so you have that, but also this [00:24:00] environmental thing. And I think say with the genetic thing as human beings, we have certain genetic traits.

But I think as you’re saying, if you do know about these things, then you can try and put practices in place to help you and, and say with your environment. I mean, it could be that you are among this very sort of high achieving group of friends. And I’m not saying that you should dump all your high achieving friends, but you should actually put it into context that,  everybody can’t be an MD.

Everybody can’t be a VP at an investment bank. And sometimes if you are in this group where everybody’s going to these. nice restaurants, and you can’t afford it. It’s a horrible situation to be in. I mean, what do you think, Tom?

Thomas: Well, I think we’ve got to be really careful, I mean, because there are all sorts of factors that, that leads people, for people to be successful.

Some due to their own efforts, but some of which aren’t. And I think we also, we need to bear that in mind. I think in modern society, we do platform and witness, and we can get a very distorted perspective of what’s achievable or what’s obtainable. And we can think, we can look at our own circumstances in [00:25:00] comparison to those and say, Oh, we’re not doing very well.

We’re not working hard enough. We’re not smart enough and all the rest of it. And that can have a major impact on our self esteem. And of course, you mentioned there,  growing up in affluent families is, is, is a blessing in some ways, but it’s also a curse in others. If you’ve got two high, highly achieving parents.

That’s a lot to live up to. A lot of psychological issues that we’re seeing I mean, I mean, among affluent groups for that very reason, the unrelenting standards and the unrelenting pressure to live up to those, those expectations. It’s really tough. It’s really tough on people and they find it really difficult.

These pressures don’t discriminate and they cut across all classes. cultures, and really, I think it’s incumbent upon all of us to recognize that we are just human beings at the end of the day, no matter where we come from, we want to feel like we’re connected, we want to feel like we matter.

We want to feel like we’ve got a purpose. And so all of those things are way, way, way more important than trying to outperform or outdo or compete with other people and I think it’s [00:26:00] really about trying to reconnect with that as a collective because the more we The more we push ourselves to outperform each other or family members or the rest of it I think the more these mental health issues are going to grow.

So yeah, look, we, it’s natural to compare, but, but I think we have to take responsibility as a collective to realize that I think our comparisons these days are often very, very excessive and not at all in line with reality or what is actually achievable.

Harsha: Yeah, I just love the points you’re making.

And this whole idea, I think of self worth because effectively we’re almost saying, okay, if I can get to this level, then that gives me self worth. But actually, you’re never going to get to that goal. That would be somebody always with a bit more money, a better house  a better boyfriend or girlfriend,  you’re just never going to get there.

So it’s almost you set yourself up on in this Trap which a problem which you’re never going to solve. I mean, what do you think, Tom?

Thomas: Yeah, I think [00:27:00] that’s very true. And I think we also have to be very careful about setting ourselves definitive goals, particularly if they’re really lofty. There’s nothing wrong with high goals, but they have to be realistic and they have to be aligned with your own belief systems, values, things that,  you think are important to you.

So if you,  if you’re comparing yourself to, I don’t know, the Joneses and you’re looking up to the realm of more. You’ve got to be really careful with that because you could work really, really, really hard and still never get there. Not because it’s your fault, but just because you didn’t have the right connections or you weren’t lucky at the right times or things just didn’t go your way at the crucial moments.

You got ill or somebody in your family close to you died or whatever. So this is life. Things like this happen. They can really derail us. And if we only, if we only consider our success in a very narrow framework of this target or that target, then we don’t give ourselves permission or opportunity to not make it sense and feel like, Hey, with that, be at peace with that, knowing that there were other factors out of our control, which when we didn’t quite get [00:28:00] there and that,  we’re able to reflect on where we did get to.

And appreciate and be satisfied with the progress that we made to get there, if you know what I mean, like, it can be a really exhausting way to live and we’re continually chasing the rainbow,  if we continue chasing that elusive horizon, because we will never get there. So I think it’s, I think it’s so important that we try not to, where possible, set ourselves strict, rigid destinations, and instead, as you mentioned, try to enjoy more of the journey and the process, because that’s where you really find your joy.

Harsha: I just love that point and I think moving on from that, this whole idea of perfectionism leading to better performance. That’s a complete myth. I think is that right, Tom?

Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. Loads of evidence now over many, many decades shows there’s no relationship to perfectionism in performance in the workplace.

Like, just let that sink in, be honest. No relationship, zero, over many, many hundreds of studies. And that’s curious, isn’t it? Because you would think that the effort [00:29:00] perfectionists expend in their work would, at the very least, give them more success. Yes. It doesn’t seem to be the case. So why is that? Well, there’s two reasons.

The first is that perfectionists work hard, but they work too hard. Unsustainably hard is the case for me. We burn out we feel exhausted, enervated, cynical about work, and ultimately remove ourselves become ill and remove ourselves. That’s obviously not the pathway to performance. But there’s a second reason why perfectionists find it difficult to perform, and that’s because they’re world class self sabotagers.

So whenever you put them in situations of challenge, we’ve sort of touched on this theme, you will see perfectionists try to avoid failure. That’s the primary motive, not to approach success, but avoid failure. And what I’ll show you what this looks like really interesting in the lab, because we do this a lot with patients, people, we put them in a lab, we give them challenge setbacks, failures to deal with and see how they respond.

And if we give them a task, let’s say a sports task, we love sports, sports competitive realm, and you really get, you really get into this really [00:30:00] neat. You’ve got to cover a certain distance in a certain amount of time and put you on a bike. Go for it. And at the end, they’ll try really hard to get this goal, but we’ll tell them that they failed no matter how well they did.

They didn’t quite make it, but it’s okay. Don’t worry. You’ve got another chance. You can try again. And on that second attempt, after the first failure, people who don’t score very high on perfectionism, they don’t really change their effort. In fact, they put a little bit more in, but the perfectionistic people, their effort falls off a cliff.

Right? Because you can’t fail at something you didn’t try. And the guilt and shame and embarrassment of first failure is so intense that they don’t want to feel those things again. So they will protect themselves from failure at the expense of their chances of success. And so, of course, this is why we don’t see these relationships that we think we should see between perfectionism and performance because of this unsustainable hard work and then this self sabotage.

So I think it’s really important that we break through this myth about perfection being the necessary evil, our favorite flaw,  this thing we know has baggage, but nevertheless, it [00:31:00] makes us more successful. It has baggage. It has loads of baggage. It’s not even going to make us more successful. So it’s about time we need to rethink about,  what are healthy ways to strive and try to turn our backs on perfection.

Harsha: Love that point. And reading into your work I think one point that I came across was this, sometimes perfectionists can be risk averse and not willing to take a chance. And that makes me think of something that one of your colleagues, Dr. Grace Lorden, talked about in her book, Think Big, and talking about how generally say women and ethnic minorities, they’re risk averse because they know the world as it is, and they have less leeway to make a mistake.

And I was just wondering, is there any correlation between perfectionism and gender or race? Have you ever come across that in any of your work?

Thomas: Absolutely. Grace’s work is very important and she’s making an excellent point that we don’t often talk about, but there’s intersectionality here too.

 I’d add in a [00:32:00] third class. One of the things that is really evident to me coming from a working class background is the overcompensation I need to make at all times to leap over structural barriers that are pacing the way. And this is, this is even more intense for women and ethnic minorities because they also have stereotype threats to contend with, they have gender pay gaps to contend with, they have biases in the workplace to contend with, and historical,  baggage from the patriarchy around people pleasing and having to turn up to work with a positive and happy pretence all the time, right?

These are all pressures that are very gendered and can weigh on ethnic minorities in a large way. So how do we respond to those as individuals? And of course, we’re going to overcompensate. We’re going to push harder because we feel like the consequences of not doing so could be really catastrophic. If you’ve lived your life knowing that one mistake, yeah, yeah. Could end you,  could be the difference between, [00:33:00]  putting food on the table that week, that month, you know could be the difference in losing your tenancy.

 That creates in you a very loss of verse kind of psychology, right?  I hear a lot about from gurus talking about, Oh,  just keep going, you can’t have a scarcity mindset, yada, yada, yada. Clearly they’ve never had to have like a scarcity mindset because they’ve lived very comfortable lives.

If, you know  the consequences, like the true consequences of actually what happens when you make mistakes and fail in certain domains, then of course, you’re going to try to avoid those things at all costs. So I think Grace is making an excellent point, but a point that isn’t made enough that we have to consider those additional factors when we’re talking about success.

Because it is absolutely the case, and I don’t have strong evidence for this, but it is absolutely the case that one of the reasons I think we see perfectionism feature very heavily among women and minorities is for the reasons that Grace has spoken. The reasons that there is a [00:34:00] loss aversion that’s very, very deeply ingrained.

And so we overcompensate for that by trying to be perfect.

Harsha: Yeah. The reason why I mentioned that, Tom, is that the majority of my listeners on the podcast are female. I’m not really sure how that happened. I thought I was making a podcast for myself, but clearly those are my people.

So,  obviously, thank you for all the listeners. But I just thought it’s an important point to make that I think if you can understand that maybe you have a predisposition to something, or there are these genetic or other factors which are leading you to a particular type of behavior, then you can’t overcome it.

But as we’re talking about, you can put things in place to sort of check yourself and say, “Do I really need to do this? Am I being perfectionistic or is good enough, good enough?”.

Thomas: Yeah, it’s the overcompensation piece. I would really urge listeners to reflect on,  is this an [00:35:00] overcompensation?

Am I, am I trying to work really hard to overcome things that are not in my control? It’s not to say,  you need to temper your aspirations. Absolutely not. It’s not to say that you can’t want to change those things. Absolutely. You should want to change those things. But we also have to meet the world where it is too.

And those two things aren’t mutually exclusive, we can want things to change. We can advocate for that change and we can push as hard as we can in the direction of change, but we could also be the world where it is. Psychologically, that’s our challenge. And that means accepting that you’re going to be pushing yourself too hard, well beyond comfort if you try to overcompensate for those things.

So it’s about being kind to yourself. It’s about recognizing that these things exist in the world. These injustices exist in the world. That nothing to do with you, nothing that’s your fault for those things, it’s just the way the world is.

And it’s so important that you treat yourself with kindness. You’re reflecting on those and reframing those things as rather than sort barriers, but actually they’re just [00:36:00] obstacles and, and, and they’re obstacles to be navigated. And as I say, that doesn’t mean acquiesce.

You can want those things to change, should want those things to change, but it’s also about being kind to yourself and recognizing that. Sometimes, in the moment, you have very little power to change these things, and so it’s about, [00:37:00] much it’s about acceptance, reflection, and finding more constructive and compassionate ways to move forward.

That’s, that’s how I would approach it.

Harsha: Yeah, because I think in your book, you talk a lot about these structural issues about how almost society is forcing us to consume. I think you talk about your two friends. Is it Ian and Kevin who aspired to these things? They were consumers effectively. They were the perfect people for our society consuming all the time.

And actually that’s what drives economic growth. And yeah, there are many other things as well.  the, class barriers as well. And I mean, clearly those things exist and you can’t change the world. But I think just knowing is better than not knowing. I mean, what do you think Tom?

Thomas: Absolutely. I think the first step to the rehabilitation of perfectionism is realizing that this is a bigger problem. [00:38:00] Perfectionism is acculturation to the society. That’s what Karen Horney wrote way back in the 40s and 50s, the problem isn’t with you, the problem is in, is, is with your acculturation.

So society like that, and that has created a lot of problematic conflicts within ourselves, because we try to conform to society’s ideal, who the person we feel like we should be the ideal consumer has got the best brands, has got the best trainers, has got the best car, the best house, all the rest of it.

And it looks, it looks, it looks a certain way behavior. So I’m like, these are society ships that are just fired at us all the time. And in order to try to conform to that ideal, we move ourselves away from who we really are, this kind of imperfect, flawed, vulnerable person that deep down we know we are, right?

And that’s that inner conflict that creates a lot of psychological difficulties and the perfection. So, I think it’s really important we recognize that there’s a broader context to these feelings. Because that takes a lot of personal power of accountability of us. There’s nothing wrong with you, right?

There’s nothing wrong with you. This is just a natural and normal response to relentless cultural condition and it’s pushing you in a certain direction. Now,  I don’t take a value judgment on this on, on the society that we live in.  this. Supply side economy consumption based economy is as, as created an unthinkable amounts of abundance that we enjoy[00:39:00].

I mean, what billionaires and the millionaires into space right now, we have a huge amount of abundance in development and a lot of that’s to do with economic system that has been with us for since the industrial revolution. Yeah, I make no value judgment on it, but I do think what we have to recognize is that, the trade off for that economic abundance is that we always need to feel not enough, we need to feel we’re always in a holding pattern of scarcity because otherwise we’d stop consuming and then we’d stop working, businesses would close and everything would start to fall down, right?

It’s so important that we just recognize that the very act of knowing that in some ways we’re supposed to feel like this, I think can take a lot of power away from those feelings. And if we can,  approach our problems from that from a point of perspective and consciousness, I suppose you would call it that.

We can then begin to meet the world where it is [00:40:00] in ways that are a lot more healthy and feel like we don’t have to at all times conform to that ideal,  we can be ourselves. We can show ourselves. We can be vulnerable. We can be courageous and that these things are okay. And actually, we’ll be a lot healthier, happier and interestingly, more productive to if we do those things.

It’s so important. We have a deep understanding, not just of ourselves, but how the world works.

Harsha: Just love that. And I think partly what you’re saying is it’s almost as if you have to be kind to yourself, appreciate what you’ve done. And I think actually when you can value yourself, as we were talking about, it’s almost as if it’s a lack of, it’s a deficit, which is driving us to perfectionism.

So almost if you can say, well what I’ve achieved is enough, it’s, it’s good enough. Actually, it’s very good. That can really help maybe deal with your perfectionism. I mean, what do you think, Tom?

Thomas: Yeah, I think so. But what you’ve got to remember is [00:41:00] that if we all did that, we would have serious problems.

Because our consumption would be dialled back because we wouldn’t need to continue just for dialled back a bit, because we’d be taking a more reflective and philosophical view on life, where there’s more to life than just work. And suddenly… We now have a problem. So the final chapter of the book is coming under a little bit of criticism, but what I’m trying to say is you can’t have it both ways.

We can’t be telling people embrace the feeling of good enough and contentment whilst at the same time pursuing an economy that’s to grow at all costs. Those two things are incompatible with each other. And what I’m trying to say is, well, why don’t we just read? Why can’t we reconsider a later period growth and try to be more agnostic about it?

That’s not to say it’s not important, but to recognize that there are more important things. And if that if we’re happy and more contented, if we’re living longer, healthier lives, and but the economy is not growing, is that a problem? Like, what’s the most important thing? And I’m really, I just want people to start to rethink [00:42:00] how a society could look.

One in which encourages us to feel like we’re enough encourages us feel content and allows us to live lives in which we don’t need to perhaps work and consume ourselves to exhaustion. So these are really the ideas I’m trying to get people to wrestle with in the book, and I hope that they can make the connections between,  the economy, the society and our psychology.

Harsha: But that’s quite a nuanced thing. And, sometimes people want black or white, either do this or do that. Yeah, clearly. I love what you’re trying to do. It’s a tough one, but just actually apart from what we’ve talked about, is there anything else in terms of  that people can do to manage, if they are, and I think you mentioned that perfectionism is on a spectrum[00:43:00], so it’s there are degrees of it.

So you could have maybe slightly lower grade, but then more extreme, but say, you are a perfectionist. What can you do to manage those tendencies?

Thomas: Absolutely. Yeah. What could you do? There’s many different techniques that you can employ and things that you can bear in mind when it comes to managing your perfectionism.

The biggest one, I mean, is to recognize that perfectionism is really about managing impressions and this perfect person that we’re trying to be, we’re almost living in fear of, because we don’t want that persona to be shattered. And I think that sometimes it’s important to have that shattered every now and again, and that means pushing yourself out there a little bit, being courageous, being vulnerable, being able to do things, being willing to do things that you think you might not be great at.

If you’re at work, maybe it’s a talk, you don’t think you’re a very good public speaker. That’s fine, neither do I, but it’s important you push yourself out there and do it anyway. Right. Do you know what I mean? Like leading a project, [00:44:00]  you might feel like you’re not great at leadership skills or management skills, but  there’s an opportunity to lead something, go and do it,  and, and the first time you do it, it’s not going to be the best.

You’re not going to be Tony Robbins or whatever. You’re not going to  be Steve Jobs on the first time. It’s just, not going to happen, but, but just sit with that discomfort a little bit and, and realize that. Thank you. In those moments, that teaches you something very important about imperfections.

That actually is teaching you that this is going to be a catastrophic experience, it’s going to go badly, that everybody’s going to see. What the reality is, is that you’re going to learn and that you’re going to make mistakes and people are going to be supportive and you’re going to be able to put in place,  a better way of doing it for next time.

So that,  so that you develop in those areas. Your perfectionism stops that development, it will block that development and you have to really get out of your comfort zone a little bit to, to make sure it doesn’t do so. All the while, you need to also be compassionate to yourself. So you have to employ self compassion all the time. [00:45:00]

Make sure that you’re kind to yourself when you do encounter those setbacks. Make sure that you’re kind both to yourself and other people when they’ve experienced a setback to kindness, compassion, and it’s so, so important. There are other micro strategies. I mean, perfectionism creates a lot of paralysis, a lot of procrastination.

So I would also suggest a good technique is to just set yourself very short chunks of time, bursts of time, and just start work. Turn everything off, turn your email off, turn your internet off, turn your phone off, and just get started. Research is that you’re more likely to finish if you get started, but you have to be strict, you have to give yourself boundaries, and you have to say, this is the time I’m going to have, and I need to get work done, because you can always edit something that’s imperfect, but you can’t edit something that doesn’t exist.

So it’s really important to get started so you can break through procrastination in that way. And then finally, I would say intrusive thoughts are very common among perfectionist people. They think in very black and white terms. I have to do this. I must do that. Very rigid very punitive as well. [00:46:00] Write those thoughts down.

Don’t suppress them. And ask yourself, how much do you actually believe this, right? How much do you actually believe that everything’s going to come crashing down if you give a bad talk? Actually believe that. And start to moderate and soften those beliefs. Say, well, it would be nice to give a talk that’s phrased like that.

Or if possible, I would like to do, or,  if I don’t do so well in this, then it’s going to be okay, right? These are important reframing techniques really counteract the, the very catastrophizing and all or nothing. Ways that perfectionist people tend to think. So don’t suppress those thoughts and feelings.

I think it’s really important to diary them if you like, write them down if you like, write them, reflect on them, and then try to reframe and find more compassionate and constructive ways forward. So those are the things I’d recommend for perfectionistic people that have helped me and that have got some evidence to suggest that they’re effective.

Harsha: Yeah. And I just love that point about putting yourself in difficult situations. Sometimes that’s where you learn lessons, [00:47:00] you get this growth, you suddenly realize that you have the ability to do things which you just didn’t think.

Say with this podcast,  I don’t think I’m particularly creative, but I’ve somehow recorded 65 episodes and with people like yourself. So it’s not just my mates who I have met down the pub. So I think it does show that you can actually do things to a level which you just didn’t realize. Almost that fear putting yourself in those difficult situations.

It does just give you that adrenaline and,  sense of purpose and joy. And any thoughts on that Tom?

Thomas: Of course, it gives you so much joy to just push yourself out there a little bit and realize it’s okay and that you accomplished something and then that’s,  that’s the most important thing.

This is a great podcast. I’m not surprised it’s become very popular and you have a, you have a very charming and affable way about it that draws people in and I’m not surprised in the slightest. And I think that. That’s it. I never thought I’d write a book [00:48:00] and writing a book is the most frustrating thing for a perfectionistic person because you never finish, but releasing it into the world is the most therapeutic thing because letting something go and then finally having no control over it whatsoever.

That for a perfectionist is so daunting. But once you allow yourself to do it, then you begin to realize that, oh my gosh, it’s okay. People love the book. That’s wonderful. But some people really hate it. And that’s fine as well. Like you can take the one star reviews. And whereas your perfections will tell you, well, that’s if you’ve got a one star review, don’t put it out into the world, because if somebody doesn’t like it, then that’s going to be, that’s going to say something that’s wrong with you, right?

Put it out into the world, someone still doesn’t like it, and you realize that it’s not that way at all. But this is just one of those things that that is life, that some people are going to love what you say, some people are not going to love what you say, some people are going to be indifferent. It’s just the world we live in.

It’s not a perfect world. And the feedback and responses that we get to being brave enough [00:49:00] to put ourselves into the world and say something or create something is not always going to be positive and that’s fine, that’s like taking a sledgehammer to perfectionism. Cause, that just release, letting go and whatever will be, will be is a very good philosophy to have, not just, for writing books, but when it comes to projects, when it comes to even something as small as sending an email,  it’s, it’s such a refreshing and liberating philosophy, but just allow ourselves to just feel that fear.

Harsha: And Tom, I feel slightly embarrassed. I was not asking for you to give me a validation of my podcast, but I do feel a lot better. So apologies if I put you in a difficult situation,

Thomas: Actually I just want to say this has been such a great conversation. You have a very good style of I suppose you’d call it interviewing, but I think it’s more of a chat. So honestly, I mean it, I mean it.

Harsha: Thank you. But one interesting point that you brought up, which suddenly struck me was that actually when you’re creating a book or any, [00:50:00] any piece of content or art, you always think, well, I want to try and make sure every argument is bottomed down, et cetera, et cetera.

But actually, if you look at it more as a way of getting it out into the world and actually starting a conversation. And actually it’s a conversation which is going to continue. And actually, it’s when people challenge you, then you might have a different perspective. So maybe getting it out into the world will help you with book number two and book number three, because people will start challenging and saying, well, I don’t agree with this.

And then that gives you an avenue to go down. Otherwise, sometimes trying to come up with ideas in a vacuum is difficult. But if people are challenging you and it’s not about proving them wrong, but it’s trying to understand what, what is the truth underlying the science, the data, et cetera, et cetera.

Thomas: I just want to have a, I want to have a conversation. I [00:51:00] want to put the conversation about mental health and perfectionism being societal phenomenon that are part genetic, but also part of living in modern society. And actually, if you want to draw that argument to its logical conclusion, then you’re going to have to think about societal solutions as well as individual solutions.

Yes. That’s a conversation I want to have, and look, I’m going to get economists up in my DMs telling me I don’t understand economics. That’s fine. Let’s have a conversation. I’m the fact you’re even talking about the issues that I’m raising is positive for me. I don’t mind that you don’t agree.  some people have said some mean things in the reviews.

That’s probably,  but I actually don’t mind that you don’t like it. Like, I,just want us to be having the conversation. And so it’s,  it’s. Thank you. This is how I think we should be thinking about what we believe in the world and what we’re creating a bit like my grandfather. We’re trying to make a difference in some way to help people along.

And some people are going to love it. Some people aren’t going to love it so much. But as long [00:52:00] as it sparks something, it starts a debate. That’s, that’s the most important thing. So,  not what people think, not the outcomes, not the five star reviews, not the fire emojis or the TikTok appraisal or whatever.

None of that’s matters. What matters is what you’re impacting on the world or how you’re impacting the world. And that should always be the most important.

Harsha: And, and, and Tom, are the growth mindset people still talking to you?

Thomas: No, unfortunately not. I’ve spoken to a lot of people about this and there is, there is some agreement.

I think what, I think where they can meet me a little bit in the middle is that. We have, it’s turned into something of a cliche and I don’t think Dweck ever meant it to do that. I actually like have a lot of sympathy for Carol in that respect. I don’t think she ever meant it to turn into a bit of the cliche that it has turned into.

But I mean, we just need to be careful about that because our discussions about groth can turn into perfectionism very quickly if it’s at the extreme, it’s like anything, everything in moderation. So too much growth in growth and growth is perfectionism, [00:53:00] but growth in moderation and recognising that we can let things go and sometimes we’re going to fail and it’s not a linear path. Well, that’s very healthy growth.

Harsha: I have to admit, I’m a big proponent of Dr. Dweck’s work. But I also see where you’re coming from. So I can’t, I don’t see a problem in having,  differing views.  that would be silly. Not to you, but  obviously you’re, you’re a busy man at a highly prestigious university.

And I didn’t realize the acceptance rates of the LSE were so low. I feel a lot better about myself reading that fact.

Thomas: It’s really exclusive. It’s, it’s horrendous. And you know what? Like I have to always put that in perspective to my students whenever they like. Have real struggles accepting themselves or accepting the grades that they got you got to put in perspective Stop for a moment and look at how far you’ve come to even get here is a ridiculously crazy. Achievement so always got to bear that in mind. [00:54:00]

Harsha: Yeah, that’s what I say to myself every day.

Thomas: There you go. Wake up very morning and put it as a note on your fridge

Harsha: So Tom, look, it’s been such a pleasure to talk to you. And so just a couple of final things. Clearly you’ve got a website, you’re on LinkedIn.

Is there any other way that people can get in touch with you? Because I’m sure after the Goop interview you’re going to be too busy to connect with people. But just in case.

Thomas: No, I love it’s been busy. Obviously, I get a lot of emails now, but I love it. Every single one of them. So please don’t be part of do do if you Google Thomas current perfection travel, you’ll find all the links to my socials and my website, which has also a link to my email and you can, I would encourage people to get in touch.

If you’ve read the book and you it’s impacted you in some way, please let me know. And if you don’t agree with it, please let me know as well. Like these are these, I just love to hear from readers. And every reader I’m very grateful for[00:55:00]. So so yeah, please do go and check me out. Thank you for the opportunity to speak about this really interesting topic on your podcast.

Harsha: And, and, and just one final thing, is there anybody you’d like to give a shout out to who’s helped you in your life or your career? A couple of people. Gosh,

Thomas: yeah, there’s so many people. I mean, I stand on the shoulders of giants when it comes to perfection research. Paul Hewitt, Gordon Flatt, really important and influential figures, right?

About a very detailed book. Andrew Hill is a big impact on me. He’s my PhD supervisor and we’ve worked very closely together. I spent six months with someone called Larissa Dubuc. Who is a fantastic manager and best manager I’ve ever had really just got it,  took a deep interest in, in you, not just as a colleague, but as a person.

And that was such a liberating way to work and you felt supported and you felt like it was okay to make mistakes [00:56:00] and just refreshing to have somebody who manage in that way. So,  the list goes on and people have really helped me in my life, but those are the three that spring to mind when you’ve asked me that question, they’ve been like really influential.

Harsha: Oh, and don’t forget your parents. Can’t forget our parents.

Thomas: Oh, okay. But yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for allowing me to rectify that situation. No, my parents, absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. I just they’ve, they’ve been very, very influential in my life. And have without them, I wouldn’t be here. So. Yeah, absolutely.

Harsha: Fantastic. Well, Tom, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. And yeah continue to sex with your work. What is the next? Is it perfectionism part two or is it going down a slightly different Avenue or are you just trying to still calm down after the success of the book?

Thomas: I’m going to take some time off because I think it’s really important to get some down time because it is a bit overwhelming sometimes with these things, particularly if you haven’t done it before. So I’m going to do that. And then, yeah, I think my next book is going to be written with a clinical psychologist and we are going to take a deep dive into what we can do to overcome perfectionism [00:57:00]  in those individuals.

Because one of the things that my book does really well is shine a light on the cultural factors that are breeding perfectionism, but not so much on what we as individuals can do about it. So the next book is really going to be a deep dive on strategies that you can employ to try to take a different direction away from perfectionism.

So, that’s in the pipeline. I don’t know when it’s going to be published. It won’t be for at least a few years, but it should be it should be a good read when it finally does come out.

Harsha: Oh, fantastic. Anyway, enjoy the rest of your day, Tom. And thanks once again. Thank you. I appreciate that. Bye bye.

Bye bye. Thank you so much for listening and staying to the end. That was such a fun interview. If you’d like to listen to more episodes, please subscribe to the podcast, which is available on your favorite providers and subscription is free. If you wish to learn more about any of the resources mentioned in this episode, please take a look at the show notes, which are available online.

Thanks once again for listening, wishing you success with your career. I hope you will join me again in the future.


*Reframe & Reset Your Career, including any comments made by the host and guests, is for informational purposes only and does not constitute advice of any description, including but not restricted to financial, legal, investing or medical advice.*

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