Looking for insights into leadership, career development and job search? Tony Martignetti and I discussed this, his new book Campfire Lessons for Leaders and much more on Episode 67 of the Reframe & Reset Your Career podcast.
In this episode, we will learn about:
How taking measured risk can help your career,
How Tony created an environment where his team felt engaged and had agency,
His interest in leadership and how good leaders are developed,
Being honest with yourself and understanding what success and progress means to you,
Don’t be afraid to promote yourself in an authentic way so that your colleagues and managers are aware of your achievements,
The importance of long term thinking when viewing your career,
Make it easy for your network to help you by being specific about your ask,
Why it’s important to demonstrate a strong business case when you’re looking to be promoted,
Job Search Mindset,
Learning to say no and using your time in ways that align with your values,
Insights from Thinkers50 and
How being a wing woman or wing man can lift others and help strengthen your relationships.
The edited transcript of the interview is at the end. It has been edited for clarity and ease of reading. I hope you find it helpful.
Tony is a trusted advisor, leadership coach and facilitator, best-selling author, podcast host, and speaker. He brings together over 25 years of business and leadership experience and extreme curiosity to elevate leaders and equip them with the tools to navigate through change and unlock their true potential. He has been recognized by Thinkers360 as one of the Top Voices in Leadership and by Leaders Hum as one of the Biggest Voices in Leadership in 2023.
Before becoming the founder and Chief Inspiration Officer of Inspired Purpose Partners, Tony was a finance and strategy executive with experience working with some of the world’s leading life sciences companies. Along his journey, he also managed small businesses and ran a financial consulting company.
Tony hosts The Virtual Campfire podcast and is the author of “Climbing the Right Mountain: Navigating the Journey to An Inspired Life” and “Campfire Lessons for Leaders: How Uncovering Our Past Can Propel Us Forward.” He has been featured in many publications, including Fast Company, Forbes, Life Science Leader, and CEO Today.
Tony Martignetti and I spoke about the importance of mindset when it comes to your job search and he told me “Get your mindset right because if you show up to an interview or to a networking event and you’re still feeling down about yourself, it’s hard to put on that strong face. Spend some time getting yourself to build the confidence, build back your resilience and part of that is also looking back. One of my exercises I do with coaching clients is basically going back into the past, doing an inventory of who I am, what brought me here, what are the things that make me who I am, and then going into the future and saying, well, who do I want to be?”
People & Resources Mentioned
Carol Dweck
Amy Edmondson
Robert Cialdini
Judith E. Glaser – Conversational Intelligence
Ruth Gotian
Dorie Clark
Contact Tony
Website (company): https://www.ipurposepartners.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonymartignett1/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TonyMartignett1
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inspiredpurposecoach/
Reframe & Reset Your Career Resources & Contact Info
Website: https://www.harshaboralessa.com/
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/ReframeResetYourCareer
LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/reframe-reset-your-career/?viewAsMember=true
E-mail – reframeandresetyourcareer@harshaboralessa.com
Thank you for your continued support of Reframe & Reset Your Career, I do appreciate it. I now have a new website, see link above, please do check it out, I hope you find it helpful.
It would be great to hear from you, the listeners, and your thoughts about the podcast, YouTube channel or anything else, it’s always a pleasure to hear your views. I have had some great reviews but not had any way of responding. Wishing everybody a happy and relaxing festive period.
Edited Interview Transcript
Harsha: [00:00:00] Welcome to Reframe and Reset Your Career,
a podcast to help if you’re looking for a job, feeling stuck in your career, or
just trying to rediscover your why. I am your host Harsha Boralessa, and this
podcast came from my passion for neuroscience and psychology and the
interaction with career and personal development.
I will be interviewing recognized experts and successful
professionals. And asking them to share the insights and strategies that have
helped their careers thrive. Implementing change is not easy and does take
time. But I do hope that their stories will inspire you on your path to greater
success and fulfillment in your career.
Here are some highlights of today’s episode.
Tony: It’s not about
working harder. It’s about working smarter and building good connections. They
need to share the wins. They need to share what the good things are happening
because those are the things that are going to get them the promotions. You
have to go back in the past to understand it.
Don’t live in it. [00:01:00]
Another aspect of networking. You don’t have to always make it about yourself,
but by lifting others up, we actually lift ourselves up.
Harsha: Welcome to
episode 67 of the reframe and reset your career podcast. Our guest today is
Tony Martinetti. Before we begin, I wanted to thank all the listeners of the
podcast and YouTube channel for their support.
We now have over 270 clips on the YouTube channel with a range
of topics, including job search, mindset, communication, and leadership. We are
close to 300 subscribers. If you enjoy the content, please do subscribe and
help us pass 300. Please note that in this episode, we may touch on mental
health and wellness topics purely in general terms.
If you have specific issues or concerns, please contact a
suitable professional. Now back to the show. Tony is a trusted advisor,
leadership coach. Best selling author, podcast host, and speaker. He brings
together over 25 years of business [00:02:00]
and leadership experience and extreme curiosity to elevate leaders and equip
them with the tools to navigate through change and unlock their true potential.
He has been recognized by thinkers 360 as one of the top voices
in leadership. And by leaders hum as one of the biggest voices in leadership in
2023, before becoming the founder and chief inspiration officer of inspired
purpose partners. Tony was a finance and strategy executive with experience
working with some of the world’s leading life sciences companies.
Tony hosts a virtual campfire podcast and is the author of
climbing the right mountain and campfire lessons for leaders. Welcome Tony.
Tony: Thank you so
much. Just hearing you read through my bio. I’m like, wow, who is this guy? I
love this guy. No, I’m kidding. I’m not so honored to be here. And, , you know,
I’m so thrilled that we’ve had the opportunity to get to know each other
throughout the years, but especially in person recently, which was really
amazing.[00:03:00]
Harsha: Yeah. And
Tony likes Indian food. And I was happy to give him a good recommendation to an
Indian restaurant in London when he was here.
Tony: Oh, it was
amazing. Thank you so much.
Harsha: We’re
recording this the day after Thanksgiving, so I’m grateful for Tammy Gooler
Loeb for connecting us and all the U. S. listeners for supporting the show. What
about you, Tony?
Tony: Wow, I mean,
this question is, is one that could open up a treasure trove of thankfuls.
Thank you. Thank you. I have to start by saying thank you for my wife and son
for being so supportive in my journey to getting to the work that I’m to do the
work I’m doing, there’s been a roller coaster ride, but it is something that
I’m grateful for and all the people who have supported me.
This is not something we go alone in the process of creating
the work we do. You know, maybe I’m the face of it, but there’s a lot of people
who’ve supported me on the journey. And so I’m grateful for all those people,
including Tammy.
Harsha: But I think
that that brings up a really good point. Yeah. Life doesn’t have to be [00:04:00] a zero sum game, but I do think that if
you’re working together with people who are on the same path or on the same
journey, we can all help each other rise.
Tony: Yeah, I’ll
start by responding to that with a quote that I love sharing and that is
something that’s really driven, driven me over the past few years.
And this quote is, , amateurs compete and professionals create.
And whether you’re inside an organization or you’re outside of an organization
starting an entrepreneurial path, , this quote of amateurs compete.
Professionals create is all about how you look at the world of, are you seeing
it as an abundant game where you can work with others to create something
bigger, collaborate, or are you seeing it as, Hey, I need to beat the other
person to the game.
I need to, , say close. And, you know, keep my IP, you know, to
myself so that no one [00:05:00] else can see
it. Uh, there are a lot of people who do that. And honestly, I think they’re,
they’re only limiting themselves.
Harsha: I think
that’s really interesting point about ideas, because sometimes I think there
are obviously there clearly are some original ideas, but actually it’s the way
people take the ideas and tailor it and actually make it their own and add
their own personal story to it.
I mean, something like mindset is something that has been
around for a long time. But I think the first time you hear it, if you’re new
to it, it’s a hugely interesting concept and quite groundbreaking, but, but you
have to add your own personal experience of, you know, how, how I encountered
it and how it changed my life. And I think everybody’s story is unique.
Tony: Yeah, I think
so. I mean, and it’s interesting how you say mindset is, you know, people often
pay homage to Carol Dweck and, you know, her work on growth mindset. And, you
know, we’re not going to forget about her work. And also [00:06:00] we’re going to build on it, which I think
is amazing.
It comes back to this Concept of transcending and including you
include the things that come before you, but then you transcend it. And we’ve
done the same thing with, , Amy Edmondson’s work around psychological safety,
which has like, it’s foundational, but there’s also a lot of people who have
taken the idea and said, okay, well, there’s more to be done here and there’s
more ways to look at it.
But we always pay homage to her in terms of like really taking
the idea and starting with it. So that’s a great example of, you know, sharing
what I just said earlier. We don’t have to be like, Oh, well, she’s done that.
Now I’ve got to do something else.
Harsha: Love that. So
Tony, I’m a big fan of the arts. Is there a performer song book or film, which
you’d like to share with our listeners? And hopefully it’s not a personal
development book.
Tony: I will avoid
those because there’s plenty of those. I mean, there’s so many different things
I could get into because I [00:07:00] love the
arts myself. You know, when I came to London recently, I was like, Oh, my kid
in a candy candy store, right?
I love museums, but there’s one thing that I absolutely love.
One piece of art that I particularly love. And it’s actually a piece that’s
local to me. It’s called all the flowers are for me. It’s basically a big, big
black metal box that’s put into a room and then a light is shined inside of it.
, and it’s by this Pakistani, artist and she does this work.
There’s a few pieces of hers around the world, but this particular
piece speaks to me because it is, , one of these things that, you know, when
you put a light inside of somebody, you might. see something that illuminates
who they really are. And I’ve written about this a couple of times how it’s
about illuminating who we really are from the inside out. But if you don’t put
the light on inside, all it is is just a big metal box. [00:08:00]
Harsha: Love that
choice. That’s a first for the show. So yeah, that’s great. Well done, Tony. So
back to the start, you graduated from Northeastern University with a degree in
business administration. Was there any particular strategy behind that?
Tony: Well, it was
kind of a, second choice. I got into Northeastern first as a pre med major. I
wanted to be a doctor. I wanted to be a radiologist, to be honest, to be honest
with you. What happened was after the first few years, I realized that this is
not, that was not my calling. It was just something that I felt like was, it
was thrust upon me because I liked the sciences and I originally wanted to be
an architect, but.
You know, people were telling me, Hey, you need to do something
that’s going to make you money. And also, you know, how give you a life that
you can, you know, feed your family and all that. And so I got into that field
because it was like, Oh, your radiology sounds kind of cool. And I realized it
wasn’t. So I quickly made a pivot [00:09:00]
into business because I thought of it as the language of how things get done.
And I’m glad I did because it was just a great place for me to
be. I learned a lot of great things and it led me down a path of actually being
able to combine those two things together. I ended up working in the biotech
field, where I was able to use business, but also work in a field that is
related to the sciences.
Harsha: I really like
that story, Tony, how you actually, you look to the reality of this situation
and rather than sort of just persisting in a field, which is clearly lucrative.
Both my parents are doctors and, I was thinking about being a medic as well,
but I also realized it wasn’t for me. So I just like the way that you almost
took control of the situation rather than let it happen to you on the front
foot.
So yeah, love that and then moving into life science as a
finance and strategy executive. Clearly you had a successful career [00:10:00] there. So can you share with our listeners
some of the lessons and learnings that helped you achieve success?
Tony: One of the
first thing I’ll mention about this is being able to take measured risks,
knowing that, you’re going to be out there, putting plans together and knowing
that, you can’t bet the farm on everything you do.
So I learned a lot about how, we put these plans together, but
we got to make sure we understand what are we putting at risk by doing certain
options? I actually think about that often now where people think, okay, like,
I’d love to try this out. I’d love to try this out or try different options.
And I’m like, that’s great. Let’s look at the possibilities,
but look at what are the risks involved with trying those things out? Because I
want you to be expansive. I want you to think about what’s available to you,
but I also want you to think, well, what am I leaving behind if I do take that
leap?
Weigh the risks. Is it life threatening if you actually take [00:11:00] this chance? Sometimes I guess it could
be, but most of the time it’s not, it’s just, you’re, taking a chance to try
something different. So that’s a big lesson I learned. I also learned that
working in a finance role in an industry that saves lives that you have to
connect your meaning to the work.
And if you’re willing to push the boundaries of, of how you
define the work, it can be a lot more expansive. So when I started to have
meetings with people, I actually eventually found myself having opportunities
to connect with patients and realize that they appreciate. The work that I do
as a person who enables the science, I was a catalyst for science and I think
that was such a lovely connection because I realized that I’m not just a cog in
the wheel. I’m actually part of the engine that creates impact. And then I
wanted to do more of that as I went along.
Harsha: I just love
that, [00:12:00] Tony. I think that last point
is really helpful because I think in any organization or in any team, I think
people want to feel involved and feel part of the team and I think then they
feel that there’s much greater agency.
Then they actually take responsibility. They don’t just view
this as a nine to five or a nine to six. So I think it’s a win win on both
sides if the employee feels engaged but also for the manager, they can, trust
that employee a bit more. I mean, what do you think, Tony?
Tony: A hundred
percent. This became my calling in a sense inside of the field, the field of
finance within biotech was to get my people to see how their work matters and
how they can take agency over their work to make change and I think this also
came from, working with some amazing leaders.
I worked for a company called Genzyme where the CEO there
always had this like mantra [00:13:00] that
sticks with me today and says that the patients are waiting. The patients are
waiting for us, we can’t waste time. Everything matters. And so we have to
constantly be moving the needle forward. No matter where you are in the
company, you have to be thinking, what can I do to make a difference?
And I think that really had an impact on how I thought about
leadership and how I led the people who I worked with to say, Hey, like, let’s
think about what’s impactful here. How can we make sure that we’re doing the
best possible work we can because patients are waiting for us.
Harsha: Oh, cool was
that interest in leadership, was that what led you to find founding Inspired Purpose
Partners and focusing on leadership?
Tony: To an extent.
Yeah. I’ve always had this feeling that I love, I’m curious about how leaders
lead and, and what, you know, what it was all about. I mean, I’ve always had a
curiosity, but I think there was also some leaders who I worked for, who [00:14:00] were not so great.
And I realized, gosh, like, there’s gotta be a better way
there’s gotta be some way to build better leadership and to have that
leadership trickle down throughout the organization. So I always had this in
the back of my mind, what else can we do to build better leaders? What’s
missing here?
And, oftentimes I would say, that’s great. And then I would
just continue on my day and just, you know, do the work I was doing because I
was so busy. And then I finally started to realize that. Man, this thing is
calling to me and I have to, I have to listen and so there was a very big
moment that called me into the work I do now, but ultimately it was those
little moments along the way that led to me really being interested in doing
this work.
Harsha: Fantastic. So
is this whole interest in leadership? Is that what led you to write your book, [00:15:00] Climbing The Right Mountain? And what are
the key skills to develop to become a better leader? Because I think for some
of our listeners, they’re good at the technical piece and that’s helped them
rise up.
And I think for people who are maybe worried about leadership,
I think it’s one of those things that you can get better at. I think some
people may be slightly more inclined, but you can learn and get better. I mean,
what do you think, Tony?
Tony: Absolutely. And
I’ll talk a bit about the book because I think it’s an interesting reflection. It
came from, I had started working in the field of coaching and leadership
development, and I started to reflect on what I was hearing from people. And I
realized. That their stories were not unlike mine in the sense that I was
working so hard to get to the top of my mountain and realize that it wasn’t for
me.
It wasn’t even I didn’t like the view at the top of my mountain
and I [00:16:00] needed to think differently
about the ascent and connect with what does success really mean to me? How do I
want to lead in the in the world? You can’t expect that success will happen at
the top of the mountain. You have to lead with a mindset of how can I be happy
now?
How can I be the person I want to be now? And then eventually
along the way, all those things come to you. All the things that you want. will
come to you as you climb because you have the mindset of fulfillment. I’m
fulfilled now because I know who I want to be. I know what I want to
experience. And I also know that it’s going to be tough.
Growth is innately tough but those, that mindset shift of
defining success, thinking differently. Really shifted who I was, but also got
me to think about how I want to help other people navigate so that’s really
what the book was about, but it also came [00:17:00]
from the idea of what I saw a lot of people struggling with in their work life.
Harsha: But I like
that point you make about thinking about the mountain because, some people pick
a mountain and it’s not the right mountain. So when you get to the top, you
think, what do I do now? So I think it’s very much about being honest with
yourself, I think I’ve heard this from you before and having those honest
conversations and saying really, what does success look like for me?
Say with this podcast, I never thought that, I would get to 67
episodes. I never thought I’d have the great Tony Martignetti on my podcast but
it is literally doing one episode at a time and then, learning from that,
picking up learnings.
Hopefully you are getting better and eradicating the mistakes
of the past and then thinking, okay, this is something interesting. [00:18:00] You, you pursue it. but really also just
being honest and saying, what is it that I enjoy doing? I mean, and, and trying
to align that with other things. I mean, what, what are your thoughts about
that, Tony, about having those honest conversations?
Tony: 100%. I often
say the first honest conversation is with yourself and really understanding,
like, who am I really? And what has made me who I am? And don’t look to the outside
view of, of what that is because society has its own way of influencing what
that looks like.
We have to be honest with ourselves about like, what do I
really want? It’s not to say we shouldn’t strive for amazing achievements. We
should, if that’s what we want. But do for the right reasons, do for the
reasons that, that matter to us. I also wanted to tap into, cause I didn’t
really feel like I answered your last question fully, because how do you get
there?
How do you become [00:19:00]
that leader? Part of this is also about self leadership when you really
understand, become aware of who you are, awareness in that self leadership
journey, it becomes this way of seeing how I’m getting in my own way, I’m
getting in the path of my own greatness because I’m starting to see that I’m
prescribing to something that is not me.
I’m getting stuck in a hamster wheel of the work politics and I
need to stop that and get back to who am I at my core? Who do I want to be now?
When we do that, we start to become much better leaders.
Harsha: Yeah, I love
that. I think it’s that self awareness. You’re figuring out where is it I want
to get to, but then also that in a questioning and sometimes we think we’re
amazing, but actually maybe look at it from what does the other person think of
me and sometimes getting that feedback from a trusted friend or a colleague who
will give it [00:20:00] to you straight and
they won’t sugarcoat it.
Tony: 100%. Yeah, I
kind of said like it’s an internal thing, but it is also you have to get
feedback from outside sources that you trust in also keeping in mind that you
have to filter within your own understanding of who you are.
So I do a lot of 360s and oftentimes the results come back and
it’s like, “Whoa, I didn’t realize that was happening”, I’m like, yeah, but you
also have to see it from the lens of like how they’re experiencing you. Maybe
their view of the world is also influenced by their own understanding of what’s
going on.
So you have to be careful. Not all feedback is created equal.
So you have to be able to take it in, understand what you want to do with it.
But if you see some truth coming through that and you say, “wow, I think
they’re right about that and this is someone I trust so I’m reacting to it. I
think I want to action on that because I realized that that [00:21:00] could be true.”
Harsha: Yeah and also
I suppose, change can’t happen overnight, but you should be kind to yourself. I
think at least if you’re going down that path, you’re trying to put things into
place. Things aren’t going to change overnight, but at least I think, going
back to mindset, if you’ve changed your mindset and one thing I really like
about mindset is that it’s a set of beliefs, which you have about yourself and
have about the world. And to some extent you can change them.
So if you start thinking, well, I can do these things. Okay. I
may not be able to do it yet, but in the future I can achieve these things. ,
and, and even if you don’t quite get there, if you’ve done 80 percent or 90%,
that’s still a huge achievement and something that we should be proud of in a
way.
Tony: Yeah, I think
you just triggered me. Now I’m triggered in a good way. [00:22:00] I want to share. So I talk a lot about grounded
leadership and there’s a mindset that goes along with that, which has three C’s
because everyone’s got a framework, right? My three C’s are, curiosity,
compassion and connection.
And so we have to continue to stay curious about ourselves what’s
going on, but also the external world, it’s an inside outside and then
compassion about ourselves, not to get too hard on ourselves about when we
don’t feel like we’re measuring up to what we want, because there’s always a
chance to try again, every day we begin again and then compassion with others,
because when people don’t measure up to what we want them to be, well, we have
to be able to, help them to get where we want to see them go.
And then the last part is connection is that, we can’t be an
isolated being, we have to connect with others, we have to be in connection.
And it’s not just about the surface, you [00:23:00]
have to get deeper, get the honest conversations going, that’s connection. So I
think those three elements are what lead us down this path of like, being able
to be a better leader, but also having that sense of knowing that we’re able to
have a better relationship with people around us.
Harsha: Love this
idea of connection that you talked about. And I think for people, especially
post pandemic, one thing that struck me was that, or even during the pandemic,
that it’s much easier to form relationships with people and especially if you have a relatively similar view of the world
but even if you don’t, you can still form relationships relatively quickly.
And I’ll say with this podcast, 95% of my guests, I’ve never
actually met in person. So actually, Tony, you’re the first person who I’ve met
in person before they’ve appeared on my show which is [00:24:00]
bizarre, but as we’re talking now it seems like a very smooth conversation and
we’ve known each other for a long time.
It’s amazing how quickly you can build rapport. You can build
connections. And I think we have much more in common than, than that divides
us. But also I think when we’re talking about building connections, say
somebody like Robert Cialdini, you know, the famous psychologist, he always
talks about looking for commonalities.
Did you go to go to the same college? Do you live in the same
town? Do you like the same food? And you have these very trivial connections,
but they build to something more meaningful, what do you think, Tony?
Tony: A hundred
percent. I mean, it’s the small things that matter, right? And I think those
are the things that build up and create, I’ll use the word and this sounds a
little bit wonky, but social capital, capital that we can exchange and and want
to exchange to help [00:25:00] each other build
up and help make impact in the world.
I think for those who are listening, who are inside of a
company and saying, well, it sounds like, how do I influence others. How do I
create impact? Well, it starts with conversations and which has me thinking about this quote,
you’re like, I’m the king of quotes here, but Judith Glaser is the author of
Conversational Intelligence and she passed away a few years ago.
She had this amazing quote, which I’m going to butcher, that
everything happens through conversation. We have to realize that if you want to
make anything happen, it has to happen through a conversation. So have your
conversations be better. And understand people better and don’t just have it at
the surface level. Make sure you go deeper, get to know people, figure out what
you have in common but also under understand the differences and respect them and
I think that’s where we get to create a much stronger connection.
Harsha: And I love
that point. [00:26:00] And I think this goes on
nicely into say if you’re working in an organization and, you’re doing good
work, but you don’t feel that you’re getting the promotion that you deserve and
you’re being overlooked.
I think that it could be one of the ways that you try and get
your message out there. There are some people who are very good at doing the
work, but they’re not very good at sharing it. And there are some people who
really don’t do very much work, but who are very good at promoting themselves. And
I’m not saying you should promote nothing, but if there is something that
you’ve done, do try and share it with other people.
Tony: 100%. And I
have a HBR article coming out about about humility and how it can get in the
way. And oftentimes, one of the elements of humility is self promotion. We’re
afraid to self promote because it feels icky. But the reality is it can get in
the way. If we don’t promote ourselves, we actually hinder the opportunities
for our teams. So we have to [00:27:00] do it
in a way that lifts other people up. As well as ourselves so we have to get the
tone, right? And I’ll also mention something.
Hopefully doesn’t go on too long. But one of the things that
really helped me a lot along the way and led to opportunities, not just
promotions is this idea of the curiosity conversations. These conversations
that along the way, as I was in my in industry, I would set up conversations
with people, who I just wanted to get to know better. And so I didn’t have an
intention of like, Oh, I’m going to them. I want to get a job or, Hey, I want
to, you know, get X, Y, and Z. What I would do is I would set up conversations
to get to know them and learn about, what do they do? What are the things they
like about their jobs?
What are the challenges? What are some areas that they’re
seeing along the horizon. And as I got to have these conversations, I also
shared a bit about who I am, what I do. And what are the things on my horizon
and [00:28:00] made a conversation, not a
preach and not a one way pulling at them through these curiosity conversations.
I got job opportunities. I got, opportunities to collaborate
and it really built my social capital in a big way. And I think that’s
something when people get passed over for promotions, go out and have some
curiosity conversations. Find out what’s going on, what is the tone there,
you’ll learn more in those conversations than you ever would by just, you know,
going and trying to do work harder and harder and harder. It’s not about
working harder, it’s about working smarter and building good connections.
Harsha: Yeah, I do
love that point about having these conversations. Clearly, look, if it’s a
quarter end deadline, you don’t want to be stressing out the FD and having
trivial conversations, but say, during the summer, or, just in the period
between sort of Christmas and the new year when maybe people are in their
office.
They’re perhaps [00:29:00] less
busy or, or whenever it is, just schedule a bit of time to get to know them.
And I do think that if you can find things that you share, that you like, maybe
they’re a fellow artist or they’re a Patriots fan or whatever. You can add
value to them and say, maybe, Oh, have you thought about this?
Or this is something that I’ve seen in my work. Maybe that
might apply to you. , and clearly every conversation you’re having is not going
to lead somewhere, but that’s not the point because it could be that that
person knows somebody, or if you meet somebody, they know that person and you
can refer to them.
It’s really about thinking about the long game as you know, our
good friend. Dory Clark talks about and not thinking, okay, how do I get
immediate benefit out of these interactions? It sometimes takes time.
Tony: I love it. And
I just, I will share just one thing that I think is really interesting. And
I’ve learned this from somebody in my earlier career. They said to me, if it is
to [00:30:00] be, it’s up to me. And I love
that, he was saying, if it is to be, it’s up to you to do the work. No, one’s
going to come to you and just say, Hey, here’s this great opportunity and go
make it happen. You have to go out and make those things happen for yourself.
Now, it doesn’t mean you have to be some ambitious cutthroat
person. What it means is you have to start planting seeds. You have to be
proactive of this. If you were at the end of the year and you’re saying like,
gosh, I need promotion tomorrow and you haven’t done anything to really plant
those seeds. Well, guess what? It’s going to be really challenging to have
curiosity conversations or talk to people about how do I make that happen? Then
you also come off as somebody who’s demanding as opposed to someone who’s
deserving.
Harsha: Just love
that. It’s funny. You’re talking about the long game and these small
conversations, a little funny story from Thinkers 50 in London, I saw you
talking to somebody and I won’t really [00:31:00]
reveal who they were, but after they had spoken to you, I thought, Oh my gosh,
Tony knows that person and I actually had been emailing this person for a
little while and yeah, we were connected, but clearly they were busy.
Then I went up to them and literally started having a chat with
them. And I said, Oh, I’d like to have you on my podcast. And I felt really
bad, but the opportunity was there, but it was the fact that I had done the
work say six months ago or nine months ago and being sort of too officious
about it and hassling this person.
And then literally a few weeks later, I’ve hopefully managed to
get her on my podcast in the future. So it does show that these small things, okay,
it’s taken time, but clearly this person is a very busy person, very successful
so don’t think about having immediate, , payback from something, but hopefully
if you are doing things the [00:32:00] right
way, things will go in your favor. And also she knew you!
Tony: Oh, come on.
You give me too much credit!
Harsha: And are there
any other thoughts you have, Tony, about if people are looking for promotion in
their organizations, what they can be doing apart from building their brand and
speaking to people?
Tony: Yeah, that’s a
good question. And I think the best thing where they can do that is to, we
talked about building relationships with people around, but also making sure
they make a good case. And we talked briefly about self promotion, but it’s
also about building a narrative. about why, why am I ready for that next step?
What are the things that I’ve accomplished? Because we often
don’t look back enough and look at, okay, what are the things that make me
ready for that promotion instead of, coming from a place of entitlement, right?
You know, just because “you’ve done your time”, the air quotes here, [00:33:00] that doesn’t necessarily equate to
promotions.
Sometimes we have to think about what have I accomplished that
sets me up for this? What are the things that I can talk about that, are like
the foundations for this? And oftentimes when I’m talking to people about
transitions they’re going through or things like that, I have them walk through
these moments in the past few years that have been the big accomplishments that
they’re proud of.
And I have them get real specific. Get into the details and
tell me what is it about this that they learned? What is it about it that made
an impact? And if they can get really specific, that helps them to be able to
go to somebody and say, Hey, here’s what’s happened over the past few years.
And I want to make sure that you’re aware of these things so that I can build a
case, in a sense, for that promotion. Not just come in and, with guns blazing
and saying, like, Hey, I’ve been here two years, where’s my promotion? That’s
not how it works anymore.
Harsha: And I think
the point [00:34:00] you make about stories is
so important because it’s so much easier to connect with people if you can
build some sort of narrative, some sort of tension, uh, and, and just tell
stories because people like stories.
And a very silly thing is that there’s another person I was
speaking to at Thinkers 50 and they’re a very successful author. And I was
thinking, look, I could either try and, talk about personal development or just
tell them some silly stories and told them a few silly stories. And they’re
saying, Oh gosh, you’re a really good storyteller. And it just helps build
connection.
Even in your work life, if you’re going for that promotion, if
you can create these stories. And have them in your back pocket. So say when
you stepped up in a leadership moment or you had to deal on a highly
pressurized situation or how you added value to a client, you know, whatever it
is, if you have those in your back pocket, those are so powerful.
Tony: [00:35:00] Absolutely, and I’ll just come back to
this. I just got through a series doing a tons of tons of 360s with people. So,
but I will say one of the things that I realized is that a lot of people do not
spend enough time sharing up to their managers into their senior leaders to
tell them, hey, this is what’s going on with the team.
Here are some things that that are going really well and here
are some things that I’m working through. They feel as though the time with
senior leadership is so precious that they don’t want to waste their time with
sharing this, they just spend the time going through all the bad things that
they need to share.
The reality is they need to share the wins. They need to share the
good things are happening because those are the things, they’re going to get
them the promotions. Those are the things they’re going to have the leaders
thinking. Gosh, that person is really good at leading people really connected
to their [00:36:00] people.
They understand how to lead people because I hear stories all
the time. Not only from them, but also from other people about how they are
focused on their people and how they’re doing, not just on getting results.
Harsha: Absolutely
love that. Moving on to say the job search piece, which I’m sure you’ve got
plenty of experience in that advising your clients. Now, what sort of
suggestions do you have for our listeners, say if they’ve been laid off or
they’re looking for new opportunities?
Tony: Yeah, I would
start by getting super specific about what you really want and I don’t mean
like maybe super specific is a bit much, but I guess the first thing is people
want to help. They do. Although it’s hard sometimes to get to them. The idea is
that you have to get specific about what is my ask. If I were to ask a friend.
A colleague, a former colleague or [00:37:00]
person I meet in a networking event, and I were to be able to share with them
the thing that I’m looking for help with.
What would I tell them? If I’m just saying I’m looking for a
job in the finance industry or whatever, that’s not going to help. You have to
get real specific and help them to see here’s who I am. Here’s where I’m
headed. These are the some of the companies I’m looking at. And I love your
help in finding opportunities in that space. Getting that type of a specificity
when people ask is what’s going to help you get what you’re looking for because
if you just make it too broad, then how can people help you?
Harsha: Yeah, I love
that. And I think really, try and make it as easy as possible for that other
person to help you. I totally agree with you, Tony, most people are willing to
help. But I think human being, generally, we’re wired to help each other, help
the community, help people get along. So just make it as [00:38:00] easy as possible for that person to help
you say, well, I’m looking at this company.
Do you have any people I can speak to or look at this sector,
if you’ve got experience in, what are the issues going on? Yeah, be very super
specific. One other thing I think that I think is important, I keep going back
to mindset is you need to get that straight. I think if you’re feeling low and
down about yourself, which is very easy to, I just can’t believe anybody who
says I’ve been let go of a job even if you didn’t like the job, you still feel,
“Oh, why did theylet me go? It would have been better if I could have left.”
But I mean, what do you think about the mindset aspect, Tony?
Tony: Oh, a hundred
percent. I’m so glad you say that. Cause I just jumped right into the, into
like the, the strategy. So right on the money. You have to take your get
yourself right first. [00:39:00], there’s a lot
of emotional, reconciling that goes with that moment. And I think you have to
spend some time getting there.
And I couldn’t agree with you more, get your mindset, right? If
you show up to an interview or to a networking event and you’re still frazzled,
or you’re still feeling down about yourself, it’s hard to, to put on that
strong face, spend some time to build the confidence, build back your
resilience.
And part of that is also looking back. One of my exercises I do
with coaching clients is that I do like what’s called a time travel model,
which is basically going back into the past, doing an inventory of who I am,
what brought me here, what are the things that make me who I am, and then going
into the future and saying, well, who do I want to be?
What are the things that are like my next thing. And when I [00:40:00] think about that, what are the things I
have to do now to get there? It’s no different in a job search because when you
think about it, it’s like, well, this is an opportunity in a sense, I’m going
to take this obstacle and I’m going to take it and make it an opportunity.
What do I want my next job to be? I don’t have to rinse, wash
and repeat and do the same thing I did before. What can I turn this into? So
when I get clarity on that, The next step is to redefine my story based on what
I now know I want to be and that’s when you can start to share with confidence.
This is who I am. This is what I’m looking for.
Harsha: Yeah, it’s a
bit like that old girlfriend or boyfriend who’s left you. You just have to
figure out a way to move on because they’re not coming back and you’ve got to
get that clear in your head first, but it takes time. And I think, you have to
be kind to yourself and whether it’s a week or a month, I mean, clearly years
is not good, but you do need to give yourself a bit of time to grieve over that
loss, [00:41:00] but then just get back on the
horse again.
And I suppose it’s like interviews as well if that interview
didn’t go well, we always look back, we ruminate and we have these regrets, but
I think it’s so important to try, obviously learn the lessons. If you did make
a mistake, then clearly you need to rectify that. But it’s about looking
forward and not looking back and really trying to get clear as you’re saying.
Yeah.
Tony: I think that to
wrap that up in my mind is that people often think like, oh, you’re always
thinking about going back in the past. Well, sure you have to go back in the
past to understand it. Don’t live in it It’s like you’re not living in the past,
what you’re trying to do is understand it so that you can move forward in a
more powerful way anything. That’s the key differentiator when you start to
look at that time traveling.
Harsha: It reminds me
of this thing where people say, look, you can’t [00:42:00]
understand life going forward. It’s only looking back and it’s like Steve Jobs,
or I think there’s a philosopher Kierkegaard who talks about it. And I do think
that is so true that. Yeah. And I’m not saying you should constantly be looking
back and ruminating, but it is worthwhile thinking about how have I got here?
What are the things that have worked, but also what are the
things that haven’t worked and rather than waiting for things to be terrible,
it’s, it’s quite helpful to do that exercise. If you can, if you do have time
from time to time and ask yourself these questions.
Tony: Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, we need to really investigate our, our lives and kind of say, Hey, what’s
really going on here? Because we get an autopilot all the time. People think of
autopilot, that’s a great thing because it means I’m not getting involved in, I
can just move forward. Yeah. But the problem is autopilot is not meant for the
things that are important to our lives like, existential types of things where
we have to [00:43:00] question, where am I at?
What am I doing? Why am I on this path? And so sometimes we get
to step back and say, what’s really going on here? Where do I want to spend my
time and energy? You know, uh, am I in the right path? Am I in the right
mountain? Those types of things we have to sometimes step back and look.
Harsha: Yeah, love
that. And I had a guest on recently and she had written a book about the power
of saying no and actually, if you can figure out how to say no to the things
that are not adding value to your life, and really focus on the things that
are, that’s a very powerful time management tool. And not that you are mean or
rejecting requests from people but it also does go back to the whole idea of
self love and self worth and thinking about, we all have a finite amount of
time, in a week or in our lives. How can we use that time most productively [00:44:00] to achieve the greatest value? , I mean,
what, what do you think, Tony?
Tony: Yeah, I think
that you’re absolutely right. I mean, it’s so spot on. I think we need to take
that time to reflect and really understand that, you know, saying no is actually
a doing service to other people and to ourselves. It’s the most powerful thing,
but we don’t have to look at as a negative because the no, it actually creates
a powerful bond between the people around us because it says that we are saying
yes to the things that are important to us. And that might mean that the people
who are around us know that we’re important to them.
Harsha: I suppose for
our listeners out there, some of them may just find it difficult to assert
themselves, or they feel that by doing things in the contrarian way, they’re
upsetting the apple cart. It’s about really understanding your own boundaries,
understand, and making sure that people understand that as well.
I have quite a few, [00:45:00]
, female listeners on the show, and I suppose also you may have come across
this, Tony, as well with your coaching clients that maybe they feel that they
can’t be too pushy and, uh, too assertive, but actually that I think that’s a
very powerful lesson for them.
Tony: Yeah, the amount
of guilt that goes along with that because there’s a sense of having to do it
all. There’s a lot of burden that a lot of women have. And I think that, you
know, we need to be able to help them to see, no, I mean, you have to be able
to push back and realize boundaries have to be set and you have to be able to
say, I’m not superhuman.
I am a human and I have to be able to have time for myself. I
need to be able to take care of the things that are important to me. And that
might also mean it’s not going to be perfect. And this idea of perfection is no
longer acceptable. I think we have to stop that. And it’s to stop with us, like
the, we have to get the ideal that we are not perfect.[00:46:00]
Harsha: Yeah. So if
you’re boss comes around to you and says, yeah, can you organize a staff
Christmas party? And you’re doing that for the fifth time. I think you just
have to say, well, why can’t Fred or Tony or Harsha do it? They haven’t done it
for a while and I think that’s quite a reasonable thing, but sometimes people feel
if you have to get on with people, you don’t want to say no, but actually
that’s just burdening yourself and these are also non promotable tasks, which, are
not going to help you get on in the firm, which is unfortunate,
Tony: Which again,
points back to this idea that we need to change the way companies think about
this stuff, where it’s like, we need to equally share the load of all types, you
can’t blame or guilt people into doing things, I see that time and time again,
and I think leaders have to start by changing the way they’re putting this out
there, it has to be [00:47:00] very fair the
way we’re looking at sharing the load.
Harsha: Now moving on
to Thinkers 50 in London, which I just loved. That was such an amazing event.
So many amazing moments, such bright, talented people to connect with. Was
there anything particular that resonated with you?
Tony: Everything. No,
I mean, from just from the pure nature of the event, it was really powerful to
see so many people that I had connected to virtually had to know virtually, but
to see them. For the first time in person and to really be able to strengthen the
bond. I think that was something that really resonated with me, but in terms of
the thought leadership in the room, this idea that we need to deepen, human
connection, and it wasn’t just about like, people think, Oh, you know, it’s
about management thinking and thinking, which there was a lot of conversations
about AI and diversity and inclusion and all that, and that was fantastic.
But I think the thing that really [00:48:00]
resonates with me is this idea of how can we create better connection? And the
other one that really was important to me, which is related is mentorship,
which I think oftentimes we forget how important it is to have mentors in our
lives. I loved that particular aspect of, of this, , event because we need to
make sure we think about who in our world is helping us to become better us.
Harsha: I just love
that. And a big shout out to Ruth Gotian for her wonderful talk, she was a previous
guest on the show. So yeah, love, love chatting with her. As you said, it was
great to connect with the people who I met virtually. But what I also liked
was, our good friend, Dory Clark’s talk about, building connections and
networking and how to do this in a nice way.
And there are so many easy ways of doing it without having to
feel transactional or making it transactional. It’s really about trying to get
to know [00:49:00] people, trying to figure out
what they’re like. And then if you can find people who you get on with, it’s so
much easier to work with them because then work doesn’t feel like a chore.
It’s a fun thing, like us on the podcast, this doesn’t feel
like work. This is just two people talking about personal development and
careers. And yeah, I think that’s quite a nice thing and a powerful thing.
Tony: Yeah. And I
think what’s at the core of what Dorie shared is something that I’ve gotten to
know, cause I’ve worked with Dorie for a number of years now, and I think she’s
fantastic. I think at the core of it all is that we make it harder than it
needs to be. When we think of networking or we think about building
connections, we think of it as a chore, but the reality is it can be playful.
It can be natural and it can be just things we do.
We often make it into this big molehill that we have to climb
and make it into something that’s like a massive [00:50:00]
undertaking. No, just, show up, be interested and create connections and. don’t
come in with this like massive desire to like, I need this person to like me. I
need this person to come on my show. I need this person, it’s more of let’s
just build relationships and see where it goes. Who knows where this will lead
to.
Harsha: My, my tip is
you need to follow Tony around and see who he’s chatting with. But one of the
really silly things, Tony, that happened was that I was getting some coffee and
I had picked up some croissant from another room and I’m not really a pastry
guy, but I was just absolutely starving that day.
And then some chap comes up to me and he looked familiar and he
said, Where did you get the croissant from? And I said, “Oh, go to the other
room.” And then I suddenly realized it was somebody who I’d tried to connect
with on LinkedIn and whose article I’d read. And I was just saying, Oh, yeah,
I’ll tell you where it is. But by the way, why didn’t you accept my [00:51:00] LinkedIn because I loved your article? Bbviously
in a very playful way.
Ten he was was just laughing as well. And it just shows that.
Yeah. Opportunities are there the whole time now, if I just said, yeah, the
croissants over there or ignored him or not being very friendly, which, I’m not
normally inclined to do anyway, but it just to show that you can make
connections the whole time, without actually trying very hard, just have some
croissant on you.
Tony: Yeah, yes, it’s
funny you mentioned this because we didn’t touch on this earlier, but I’ll say
it here is that there’s a sense of just because someone doesn’t accept your
requests or you send an email to somebody and they don’t respond like. We
quickly go into like, Oh my gosh, that person’s like ghosting me or they hate
me or this other thing.
And I think that’s the other lesson [00:52:00]
in all this is that like, my gosh, we’re all busy and we ultimately have to
realize that we’re all humans. And we sometimes just need to have a couple of
different touch points and sometimes serendipitous moments where we need to be
offered the directions to croissants. Yes, so I think that’s the beauty of it
is that you have to realize that sometimes it’s just, you didn’t hit the right
button at the right time.
Harsha: And the
other, I think, interesting thing is that which I think Dory was talking about
is be a wing man or wing woman for somebody else because it’s so much easier to
go up to somebody and say, “Hey, meet Tony, he’s the author of all these books
and the host of the virtual campfire podcast. He’s a great guy” and it’s much
easier to blow somebody else’s trumpet than your own. I did that for, one of my
friends, [00:53:00] at the conference and it’s
so much easier to do that.
Then she was doing it for me when, you know, we were meeting
people and not in a sort of transactional way, but because it was natural and a
shout out to Sandy Seeber Quayle for this and it’s so much easier to do that
because you just don’t feel as icky about the whole thing because it’s not
about you. It’s about that other person.
Tony: Yeah, that’s
brilliant. I really love that because it’s another aspect of networking and
just in general building connections is that you don’t have to always make it
about yourself, but by lifting others up, we actually lift ourselves up. And I
think that’s the beauty of this, is that, that person appreciates it and they
give it back in big droves.
I’m in the process of launching a book and I’m doing it in a
very quick succession, but I have a lot of great people who are helping me in
this journey and I couldn’t be more grateful and in them lifting me up. I’m [00:54:00] actually appreciating that and looking to
give back for all the people who have given to me. So it’s awesome.
Harsha: Oh,
fantastic. So Tony, we’re coming up to the end of our session. Loved having you
on the show. So obviously your new book, can you tell us the title and when is
it out? And how can people get hold of it? And, and also you as well.
Tony: Oh,fantastic.
So, the new book is called Campfire Lessons for Leaders. How uncovering your
past can propel you forward. And it’s going to be available everywhere December
6th is the launch date. You can find it, Amazon’s probably your best bet, if
that’s where you buy your books, but it’s in bookstores everywhere.
A little bit about the book. It’s based on my podcast, The
Virtual Campfire. It dives a little deeper into 10 big lessons I’ve learned
through the people I’ve worked with on the podcast and some really beautiful
stories that I wanted to share with everyone. So, that’s the [00:55:00] book and then in terms of getting in touch
with me, the best place to find me is that my website ipurposepartners.com and
also on LinkedIn. I’m very active on LinkedIn.
Harsha: It’s funny
because I was doing a search for Tony Martignetti andthere seems to be quite a
few Tony Martignetti’s on the internet. Yeah, it’s not tonymartignetti.com, uh,
where you are?
Tony: No, it’s so
funny. You say that because actually, he and I know each other tonymartignetti.com
and I are friends. I’ve done his podcast before so we’ve gotten to know each
other through the years.
Harsha: One final
thing is, is there anybody, one or two people who’ve helped you in your life or
your career? Obviously you gave a shout out to your lovely wife and son and
family.
Tony: Wow. I mean,
again, the list could be very long, but I’ll just start with Dorie Clark. I
can’t tell you how much she is. given to me. And so I’ll definitely give Dorie
Clark a lot of credit. [00:56:00] And another
person who I will mention here is Jeff Shaw, Jeffrey Shaw he’s been, just a
great person along my journey. He’s been, a really good confidant and a person
who helps me with a lot of thinking and just a partner in crime, if you will.
Harsha: Yeah, Jeff’s
a good guy. I only met him for the first time in London, it’s a shame. I didn’t
spend more time with him, but there’s just so many people, but yeah, he’s quite
a cool looking dude.
Tony: Definitely
worth having on your show. He’d be fun.
Harsha: Once again,
thank you so much. Loved our chat. We could have gone on talking for part two
and part three, but thank you once again, Tony, and have a good one. You too.
Tony: Such a
pleasure. Thank you.
Harsha: Take care,
Tony. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening and staying to the end.
That was such a fun interview. If you’d like to listen to more
episodes, please subscribe to the podcast, which is available on your favorite
providers and subscription is free. If you [00:57:00]
wish to learn more about any of the resources mentioned in this episode, please
take a look at the show notes, which are available online.
Thanks once again for listening. Wishing you success with your
career. I hope you will join me again in the future.
*Reframe & Reset Your Career, including any comments made by the host and guests, is for informational purposes only and does not constitute advice of any description, including but not restricted to financial, legal, investing or medical advice.*
